Antwar Saloon

[cavemanjed]

Cost before the tax credit 41,000, after subsidization 32,500.
The Volt can travel 40 miles on its battery charge and an additional 340 miles on a gasoline-powered generator.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/27/AR2010072705834_pf.html

In contrast for equivalent money

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2011/3/328iCoupe/Default.aspx

328i Coupe
Starting at $36,200 MSRP
3.0-liter, inline 6-cylinder engine
230 horsepower
Rear-wheel drive
28 mpg hwy

Your tax dollars at work. Apparently bailing out GM results in a POS electric car that no one will buy. I'm guessing for 30-40k I'm gonna pick the Beemer that will result in getting way more ass, and probably still run after 75k miles.


Cavemanjed
_________________
Life will kill ya...but not as fast as Obamacare.

[Lance]

You do realize that the development of anything BMW was probably very heavily subsidized as well. Or any car from any country for that matter.

[AUSKAR]

I have a Volkswagen GTI. I loved that car so much that when I wrecked the last one I bought an almost identical one. This one, though, is pretty much stock, not fixed up.
_________________
Visit my web site at LloydDistrict.com.

[Xiahou]

Look up some info on how a prius is made...puts out more pollution than a host of other cars ever made. Plus a simple test done by top gear showed the mileage thing isn't all its cracked up to be.

Here is the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKTOyiKLARk

He is another http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOvp69lnZbA&feature=related
_________________
Where are you John Wayne when we need you...

[cavemanjed]

[Darren]

Those Tesla electric cars look nice. But, for 100k, they should. They run on death rays.

[Lance]

[cavemanjed]

I can absolutely compare the two. As a consumer Chevy wants me to shell out 40k for a Volt, so as a consumer I get to go ok is your vehicle worth 40k and what kind of car can I get for comparative money? Oh shit, a bmw is only 36k?! Which immediately makes my wtf meter peg; why would I spend 40k on a volt? Then I notice the volt only goes 40 friggin miles on an electric charge, so in essence its still a gasoline powered car that produces a hell of a lot less power, has probably half the performance, isn't near as nice on the interior, etc... so as an economic value, it sucks.

As a taxpayer I get to bitch because I think Its crap that we're subsidizing it, even if GM weren't owned by the government. If the English/Germans/Japanese/whomever else want to subsidize their industries, whatever, I could give a crap, its their country. And the whole logic behind subsidizing "green" stuff is asinine anyway.
_________________
Life will kill ya...but not as fast as Obamacare.

[jeffg]

I don't think any company producing something as complicated as a practical battery powered vehicle can do it without assistance.

How else would you do it?

Jeff

[Lance]

[cavemanjed]

[Xiahou]

I don't know personally why anyone buys new to tell you the truth. Hell wait a year get all but one's year performance out of it if you kept it for the life of the vehicle and it would still divide out substantially cheaper.

40,000$ is 10-20 good used cards for us. That would last a lifetime. It gets you from point a to point b. Anything more is for show. 40000$ for a car that would have trouble doing my daily commute let alone in the snow of winter is a laughable joke.
_________________
Where are you John Wayne when we need you...

[Alpern]

[Xiahou]

really wow, since 1990 when I started driving. We have spent lets see...


2000 on first car in 1990 (still in High school) on a 1979 cutlass supreme had it for 7 years and sold it.
3500 on a 1991 Cutlass supreme in 1997 had it for 10 years
2500 on a 1977 Suburban had it for 5 years (1998-2003) sold due to gas prices (454 big block tends to drink it)
600 on a 1986 Safari van for 5 years (2003-2008)
4000 on a 1996 Astro (had it for last 5 years still running fine)
100 on hand me down 1996 Escort bought off parents since they got a 09 escape. Current driver
0 - 92 Berreta Father in law found in field got it running by flushing lines farmer gave it to him to get it off land. Got an offer of 500 for it now sitting in our driveway hopefully sold in a couple of days. Still can drive fine.

So in 20 years we have spent for the two of us 12,700. That and the fact we sold the suburban for me than we bought it for. Same with my cutlass (79) The 86 astro got 300 scrap out of it.

To each his own but finding a good mechanic you trust is all it takes. I know how to change oil and some very basic 101 car stuff like changing wipers. But I don't even bother doing that. We just find a good small town mechanic never go to large dealer ones and they keep them running spot on for very reasonable fees.

We commute about 60+ miles between the two of us a day.

For used just take it to a mechanic you trust on a test drive. Have them give it the once over. a 4 thousand dollar used can easily give you 8+ years treated right with regular oil changes etc.

Again to each his own but for barely half the cost of a new (let alone the MUCh cheaper insurance) we have driven for 20 years on 15000 lets say for two cars (throwing in mechanic bills 3k estimate in 20 years)
less than 1000 a year.
_________________
Where are you John Wayne when we need you...

[bluewolf]

I have only purchased 1 car in my life.
2000 Hyundai elantra that i purchased new for 12000.
after it was paid off i spent another 8k tricking it out into a fast and furious rice burner.

I loved that car with a passion... I would NEVER have purchased it used LOL.

Bottom line for me is I have to enjoy the car. a car is not just a seat that moves you from point to point its an extention of character in my oppinion.
_________________
Never surrender freedom for laws that can't affect
criminals; they disobey laws for a living.

--Wayne LaPierre, CNN commentary

[AUSKAR]

Exactly. A car is not just a seat that moves. Not for me. For some people it is, but not for me.
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Visit my web site at LloydDistrict.com.

[Huxley]

Different priorties in life dictate what car you buy just as much as how much money you have to spend on it. Xia's strategy on buying used cars is both sound and admirable to me, only perhaps in 10 years he'll be driving a used electric car instead.

Whether it's a Chevy Cobalt or a Lexus GS, as someone who's been in the automotive design business for a while I can tell you that both cars, while varying wildly in price, are nowadays days designed to last the same amount of time; 10 years. If I submit a design to Ford or Honda and tell them that this part has a R90/C90 (Reliability/Confidence) rating over 12 years, they'll send the design back and tell me that it's too expensive, make it last 10 years. Ten years is what society in North America currently bears out for the reliability of a vehicle, it's been like that for the last 20 years or so and it's one of the standards in design that's allowed Japanese companies to change the landscape of the automotive industry in North America (Yes, of course, not the only reason!). Chevy's repeated inability to reach that 10 year target consistently over their entire product range is another reason for the change as well, but why state the obvious.

The evolution of the electric car and variants of it rely mainly on the oil industry's ability to keep oil at a barely acceptable price. Their loss of control over the price of oil over the last 10 years reflects strongly on the progress of alternative fuel based vehicles, and allowed cars such as the Prius to extend a foothold into the market. My company is developing an electric car in a joint venture with Ford; it's launching next year in direct competition with the Chevy Volt. Within 2-3 years there'll be a pleothra of choices of alternative based vehicles, within 10 it'll be down to a choice between a reliable 7-9 manufacturers. The BP spill disaster will only expediate the launch of the reliable electric vehicle, I guess the oil industry was only able to stall the development of it a hundred years or so.
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It Goddamn counts all the Goddamn time.

[Alpern]

[Huxley]

Of course it's all about the batteries. Intrestingly, according to Wiki, the theory behind modern day Lithium-ion batteries was first proposed by M.S. Whittingham at Binghamton University, at Exxon, in the 1970s. And then it.... died. What a shocker. A scientist on an oil company's payroll proposes a revolutionary portable power source that one day may be an alternative to the combustion engine, and it gets dropped. It took studies outside North America for the concept to really germinate and take hold, and society lost 10-20 years of development time in the process. Lobbyists sponsored by the Oil industry are amongst the most powerful in both our countries. Grant money that could have gone to alternative fuel research I'm sure has been diverted to other avenues of research for decades. If the oil industry had had a better grip on oil production the last 10-15 years we'd have great cellphones, cars with huge engines (look at the revival of the V8 engine in the early 90's.) and we likely would not be having this conversation.
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It Goddamn counts all the Goddamn time.

[AUSKAR]

Everything I read said the batteries couldn't live up to the test.

My theory is that when "alternatives" cost about the same price to operate as the current alternative, you will see more choices. That's what happened when we switched from whale oil to petroleum based products and fossil fuels. Whale oil gradually became more expensive and it "made sense" to switch to petroleum. The same thing will happen when we switch from petroleum to hydrogen, wind, water, tidal, and so on.

Electric cars still need energy made from something, somewhere, somehow...
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Visit my web site at LloydDistrict.com.

[Huxley]

[Alpern]

[Wes Janson]

The basic problem with batteries is, and always will be (barring incredible breakthroughs in technology), their energy density. Car & Driver's March edition had an interesting story with some numbers in it:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/10q1/electric_supercars_audi_e-tron_tesla_roadster_m-b_sls_amg_edrive_charge_to_production-feature

Such as:

[Lance]

[Wes Janson]

[Lance]